Big Interview Podcast #1 Chris Voss (former FBI Hostage Negotiator)

Big Interview Podcast #1 â€" Chris Voss (former FBI Hostage Negotiator) Have you ever wondered what techniques a top FBI hostage negotiator might use during a salary negotiation?Well now is your chance to take a peek behind the curtain and learn from one of the best.Chris Voss @VossNegotiation is here to teach you his secrets and jedi mind tricks.He is a former FBI Lead International Hostage Negotiator, and the author of the national bestseller Never Split The Difference. You can see it here on Amazon.He is also the founder of The Black Swan Group a negotiation and consulting training firm.Note: If you want to get more from Chris Voss, sign up for his monthly negotiation newsletter on his site or just text FBIEMPATHY to 22828 from your phone.Show NotesChris discusses how he joined the FBI and became a hostage negotiator.How to handle salary history and salary expectations questions.How to deal with job offers at lower than expected numbers.How to avoid the biggest mistakes people make.How to tell if you can still push for more (or if youre hitting the limit of what can be offered).TranscriptAlex: Hi, everyone. Im Alex Andrei. And welcome to the Big Interview podcast. And Im really, really excited about our next guest. If youve ever wanted negotiation advice thats simple, incredibly effective, and even field-tested by the FBI, then look no further. Our guest today is Chris Voss. He is the former FBI lead international hostage negotiator. Hes also the best-selling author of an amazing book, Never Split the Difference. And he is also the founder of the Black Swan Group, which is a negotiation consulting and training firm.And what are we gonna talk about today? Today, well talk about dealing with salary questions and negotiating your compensation package. And Im really, really excited. Welcome, Chris. Thanks for coming on.Chris Voss: Thanks, Alex, a pleasure to be here.Alex: Excellent. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do?Chris Voss: You know, I help people get more, you know, get more out of life, move their familys lives forward, get more for their family by being better negotiators and not necessarily by being better attackers or better arguers. You know, negotiation doesnt have to be attacking or arguing. Its just…negotiation about gaining, and you can gain without necessarily making the other side lose. And thats the trick.Alex: Excellent. And, you know, you have such a strong background in negotiation. You worked for many years at the FBI before starting your consulting firm. So can you tell us a little bit about what attracted you to negotiation and how you got your start in this world?Chris Voss: Well, you know, I was…and looking back on it, I didnt know I was gonna get into hostage negotiation, but I do remember when I was a police officer before I was an agent, running across some detectives that were great communicators, great at getting what they want, instead of ordering people around, you know, getting people to happily comply. And I was amazed by that. I mean because when I first st arted, I was a cop, you know, I thought, you know, you tell people what to do, issue orders, take control, be in command. And while that works more than half the time, theres a lot of failure there too when you start ordering people around. And its also not a great long-term strategy.So I became an agent, belonged to and hung out, if you will, with the guys that got other people to cooperate voluntarily. You know, we really prided ourselves on making cases not with witnesses that were forced to testify, but witnesses that testified because they didnt like bad people. They testified voluntarily because they wanna cooperate with us. And then that dovetails right in. And I was on a SWAT team also at the time.But then I had a recurring knee injury, and so I decided, you know, before I destroyed my knee, you know, do something else in crisis response. And I figured negotiation wouldnt be that hard, you know? All you have to do is talk to people. Like its not that hard to host the show, r ight? All you have to do is talk to people. Its actually a lot more complicated than that, isnt it? You know… just because make something look easy, it doesnt mean it is easy.Alex: True, yeah, and its exactly right. And you had mentioned…I think after I was reading this or in one of your other interviews, youd mentioned that you worked on over 150 kidnappings when you were at the FBI and other work they were doing. So Im just curious. What was one of your best experiences or most satisfying negotiations in your, you know, kind of long career?Chris Voss: Well, you know, its a great question. I mean its hard to say whats the most satisfying. When you save somebodys life…you know, there was a 12-year-old boy in Haiti, saving his life, is that anything more satisfied than saving the 16-year-old boy in the Philippines? You know, it was all kind of a great ride. I mean it was all… Every time we worked out was incredible. And helping people in their darkest hours was incredible acr oss the board. So, you know, its hard to pick out any one case. It was a privilege to have done what I did.Alex: Yeah, when they end up working out okay, such a dangerous situation, and then everyone gets home safe and sound, I guess thats a lot of satisfaction just knowing that. Even if you did a little bit or you did a lot, at least, you know, people getting home safe and sound is probably incredibly satisfying, Im guessing.Chris Voss: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, even as we talk…Ill tell you one that I really like, where the hostage escaped, a guy whos still a friend of mine to this day. His name is Pepe Escobar. And the negotiation strategy helped contribute to an environment where Pepe escaped. And also his demeanor as a hostage had…easily 50% of the reason why he escaped was because of this incredible demeanor. And this is a guy who inspires me still to this day, how courageous he was and what a great guy he is, you know?And that case was very satisfying because we had justâ €¦I had just changed our proof of life strategy in that case, and we actually never got proof of life in our strategy. I initially thought it was a failure, and then he escaped. Pepe escaped just a few days before his daughters first birthday. And was ridiculously satisfying when he got out.Alex: I remember the story from the book being really, really, you know, moving. You know, there was some trepidation about using these new techniques and kind of…but then, you know, buying yourself time, forcing the kidnappers to go back and forth in kind of dealing with you and giving the hostage some time to kind of I guess, you know, do his own magic with the kidnappers, yeah.Chris Voss: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a great case. So I was really happy with the way that worked, yeah.Alex: And the book has so many great anecdotes like that, I mean in addition to… Whats really nice is that its coupling, you know, real-life examples and then the lessons learned, some that worked out well, s ome that worked out less well, and kinda what the takeaway was. So its really, really practical because Im sure people are thinking, What does hostage negotiation have to do with me? I mean its cool, and it sounds really interesting. But is there a practical application in day-to-day life?And I think there really is. I mean I gotta say this is one of the best books Ive ever read on negotiation, if not be best, because of a lot of the practical advice thats in there, because theres a lot of academic stuff out there. Its all well and good, you know, different charts and graphs and ideas and things to think in mind. But then you get punched in the face in a negotiation. Its good to kinda be able to fall back on really practical, sound advice. So, yeah, fabulous book.And lets move away from like the life-and-death situation piece of it to more day-to-day stuff. So what do you think is the most… Lets say early on, in a…you know, in an interview between a candidate and an employer, th ey get a question, right, something…whats the most strategic way for someone to respond to early questions related about salary history or their expectations prior to even getting a job offer?Chris Voss: Right. Well, you know, interestingly enough, because… Theres space between yes and no. Theres space…theres a difference between answering and responding, you know? I mean theres so much space between yes and no. Its as big as the Grand Canyon. And a lot of times, in a negotiation or a salary negotiation that you get the question like What are your salary expectations? Like you dont have to answer that question, and youre not evasive. You can explore the space in that. You can say, you know, It sounds to me like you guys have something in mind. It sounds to me like you guys have ranges in mind. It sounds to me like you guys are trying to categorize me in order to appropriately compensate me.I mean you can begin to… You can be responsive without answering that question because to answer that question blindly is a little bit like going into a restaurant and looking at the restaurant owner and saying, How much for meal? Well, the restaurant owner is gonna…Well, it depend upon what you buy. Or going to a tailor and saying, How much to make a suit for me? Depends upon the suit, you know? And the tailor, you dont get mad at the tailor for asking you questions to try to clarify. You know, youre…if youre in a job interview where youre not allowed to clarify, then you are in the wrong job interview.Alex: Its a big red flag, absolutely, yeah.Chris Voss: This is gonna be the worst place you could ever possibly work, because thats…you know, thats gonna be a predictor of what working there is going to be like. And the job interview is as much of an interview for them with you as it is the other way around. You dont wanna take a bad job. You dont wanna make a bad deal.Alex: Yeah. And a lot of candidates will feel compelled to answer the question because they fe el they dont have many avenues to wiggle around it or be able to, you know, get them to kind of give them a better idea of what their expectations are, what their ranges are. So, yeah, I mean thats great advice.And then lets say after the interviewing, they think youre an amazing candidate, once you get the offer, what do you think the best initial response would be to the…to an offer of a salary that might be lower than what you expected? So youre getting the offer. They come in at X dollars. Its quite a bit lower than what you expect. What do you think would be a strategic way to respond to that?Chris Voss: Well, being prepared for that and working your way towards that all along is very important because salary pays your bills, but it doesnt advance your career. So, you know, would you take a minimum wage job if you got to be Warren Buffetts assistant for a year? Whats involved in the job? How does it position you for a year from now? Because one way another, a year from now is coming, and so you have to position yourself, whether its in this job or another job, with criteria in the job for success or even to expose you to opportunities for success.Theres a very good friend of mine whos a head of an international bank in the United States. And he just has an undergraduate degree from a small town, went to a small university, no alumni connections got ahead strictly on his own abilities. One of those key issues was in every job interview, each and every salary review, hes always asked, How can I be guaranteed to be involved in projects that are critical to the strategic future of the company? Now this is a non-salary term. But just getting involved in future strategic product…projects…immediately gets him visibility with the top of the company. So whatever he was getting paid when they hired him, he now has got visibility with the CEO. The CEO is watching him. The CEO sees him as a guy that moves the company forward. So a year from now, theyd rather pa y this guy tons of money than lose him because hes become so important.So your job negotiation…salary is important. You gotta pay those bills, yes. But those…paying the bills doesnt advance your career. So it has to be more than just your salary.Alex: Right. And thats an excellent point. You know, you gotta see the big picture, the overall package as a whole and not only focus on just that one element of it, or just a couple of elements. Theres a lot of other strategic components to building a career. So, yeah, great advice on that.And then based on your experience, what do you think the biggest mistake is that a lot of people make when theyre negotiating a job offer? What do you think they run into trouble with?Chris Voss: Well, theyre afraid to clarify the different components. Big picture is exactly like what you said. What a lot of people dont realize is theres really three things that are really important. You know, the people that are interviewing you are assessing you on two levels. Are they gonna be able to stand to look at you every morning at the water cooler? When you guys are standing in the line getting coffee, are they gonna enjoy talking with you? So are they gonna enjoy working with you?But theyre also assessing for how are you gonna represent them on the outside when youre representing their interest? Will you stand up for them in a way that it doesnt compromise their future? So as their ambassador, can you politely stand up for whats best for the company? So they wanna know that you can stand up for yourself in a very polite way.Then the interesting…the other thing to consider is does success in a job guarantee you success in the company? Now, you know, as an analogy, the FBIs hostage rescue team has difficulty recruiting within the FBI because the best candidates for it are really former Special Forces people. So there are times when the FBI recruits specifically for Special Forces people. Now, this is gonna make you great in a hostage rescue team. But its not gonna advance your career as either a manager or an investigator.Sometimes the FBI needs scientists. And the FBI will go out and recruit scientists. Being a scientist and being very analytical is…its much harder to get ahead in management, and its harder to be a great interviewer. So you might be getting recruited for a position that doesnt necessarily guarantee you success within the overall culture of the company. And you need to have a feel for that because you may be a great cultural fit, but only fair for the job. Or maybe youre fantastic for the job, but the requirements of the job doesnt mean youre gonna be successful within the company. So thats another reason why you…the job interview is much of an [inaudible 00:14:11] of them for you as it is vice versa.Alex: Right, because, yeah, if theres no prospect or vision for the future, then people cant get…you know, it might not be all that enticing. And even if youre negotiating as the employer, if youre not able to paint a nice picture of what the future looks like and how you grow with the company, then its…you know, if its dollars and cents alone, even that after a certain point wont be incredibly compelling to the candidate. So to be able to kind of…on both sides…to be able to kinda see what the road ahead looks like because you can be great at the job itself, but then theres not much of a track to advance.Chris Voss: And Id like to make another point here also in terms of women and salary and job negotiations. And Ive got a lot of women that are in my MBA classes. And they come to me and they say, Look, how do I negotiate with my company? My company is paying male interns more than what theyre offering me. And my answer to them is youre in the wrong company. If youre in a company that does things like that where you know theres a disparity between what theyre paying men and women, youre working for a company thats getting ready to go the way of the dodo.You know, h alf of Fortune 500 companies in 10 years are gonna be gone. And in my view, one of the reasons is if its a company that compensates men and women differently, thats the tip of the iceberg of a lot of really bad strategy in that company.So, ladies, if youre…if you wanna get a better salary from a company that notoriously pays women less, heres what Id say. Were I your father…I dont have any daughters, but I have a daughter-in-law to be…I dont want you working there. There are better places for you. Thats a dead-end job. Its a toxic environment. Its a bad strategy. Go someplace else. Its like marrying someone whos bad for you. Go someplace else.Alex: Right. And thats a big red flag too. Like you said, its just the tip of the iceberg. It means that if this little thing, theres already a big difference there or noticeable difference, then that likely permeates the whole culture in some in some way. So…Chris Voss: And not promoting based on talent. Theyre just… And you want…i f you wanna work with the best, you wanna be someplace where they promote based on talent.Alex: Now, theres been…since you brought up the topic…theres been a lot of literature about some of the differences between men and women in their negotiation style. Theres some school of thought that says, well, you know, men are more used to asking for what they want, and women are less encouraged to do that. From, you know, youth, theyre just kind of told…you know, they kind of take it as it is and are less likely to ask for what they deserve. Do you have any thoughts on that? I didnt really see that in the book too much on that. Like…because some books kind of hone in on that a lot, and this one was more broad advice that applied to everyone. But do you have any feelings or thoughts, one way or the other, on that topic?Chris Voss: It potentially could be a couple things. I mean there are certain dilemmas that we all struggle with. Some of it is asking for what you want, and some of it is also being willing to walk away. A guy that has come to be a friend of mine here in Los Angeles, Ned Colletti, hes a former GM for the Dodgers, first year, he was Dodger GM, he took them from worst to first. He comes in and he lectures to my class. Finally, they say to him, Hey, look, you know, Ned, obviously, you do a great job on your own behalf. How do you negotiate your contracts? How do you get paid well?And he just says, You know, I always relied on my employers just to pay me what they thought I was worth. And were like Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, oh, stop right there. You know, stop right there.But I said, You cant leave it there, Ned, because thats exactly what women are being accused of as if its their fault. And thats not true. So lets dig into this a little bit better.And what Ned is really…was really good at, for him, hes great at saying no. What hell do is hell turn and walk away. And he turned when he finally got offered a salary for the Dodgers. Ned stood up and pa cked his briefcase and started to walk away. And the Dodgers GM, Frank McCourt, said, Wait a minute. Where are you going? And he said, Im leaving. Im not working for you for that. Frank said, Now, wait a minute, wait a minute. Were negotiating. Youre counter-offering. He says, No, were not. He says, Im gonna… And he laid out some [inaudible 00:18:32]. But he said, Either pay me that or Im out of here.Now what a lot of people misinterpret that as is they see the walk-away as like this violent, harsh thing to do.Alex: Right, to flip the table and just storm out, like…Chris Voss: Yeah, thats what everybodys imagining in their head, slam the hands [inaudible 00:18:49] and turn the table over. Now you dont have to be dramatic. You know, you dont have to be an actor. You dont have to be [inaudible 00:18:55] Academy Award. You can simply, like Ned did, you know, look the other person in the eye, pack your things very politely, very quietly, very gently pull away. Thats actually one of the best ways to confront attacker is to withdraw because they dont see it as violent. And they just kinda go, Wait a minute, like Frank McCourt did, Wait a minute. Where are you going? And you say, No, Im not doing it for that. So one of the things that any negotiator needs to get better at is to be able to gently say no.Alex: And based on your experience, how can you tell if there is still room to push without actually jeopardizing the offer? So, you know…and it kinda dovetails into what you mentioned here of like being comfortable in that space. But how do you think you can tell if theres….you know, without getting to the point where they kinda be like Oh, I dont wanna work with this guy?Chris Voss: Well, yeah, exactly. How to probe gently, theres one of two ways. You know, one way is through a skill that we call the label and one of the labels you might say is Sounds like theres nothing more here that you could do and go silent. Sounds like theres nothing I can say that can get you to change your mind. More negotiators that Ive coached have resurrected deals by being polite and respectful the entire time. You know, again, this is all within context. You need to be polite and respectful and deferential in a negotiation so you can be assertive. Those two things go hand in hand. You dont wanna be aggressive and assertive. You wanna be polite and assertive. So you put yourself in a…and you use a label.Or another great way of saying no, which is like the opening line of my book, which is How am I supposed to do that? Now, notice I said it…I didnt go, How am I supposed to do that?! you know, like You idiot! Thats one of the ways to say no. It invites collaboration. Its appreciative. Its demonstrating that youre trying really hard to continue to collaborateIve got some people that Ive coached. Thats the only way they ever say no, and they keep saying it until the other side finally says, Because if you want the deal, you have to. Now when someone responds that way, that has achieved exactly what you just asked me. You gently, respectfully found out everything that was available. You kept the conversation going. You took it right up to the end. The other side still feels respected and still wants to make a deal. So thats one of the ways of doing that also.Alex: And I really love the fact that, you know, in your book and, you know, even when youre speaking that you have this ingrained kind of…how important tonality is. People…a lot of times you read books on communication skills or anything like that. They dont really touch on tonality as much as they probably should. And its so [inaudible 00:22:11] or unimportant, because, like you said, you can say like, you know, How am I supposed to do that? or, you know, How am I supposed to that?! and thats, you know, a vastly different kind of conversation youre having.Chris Voss: Well, and it…you know, people dont think its sexy to master the fundamentals. I listened to a lecturer a coup le years ago where there was…a maestro trumpet player was telling people how to become a maestro, how to be the worlds greatest trumpet player. And every single person that he would coach, he would say, Play me a scale. And they would be like Noh, let me play a great song. He said, No, play me a scale. And theyd play him a scale and then he listened to them play and they say, How do I get better? And hed say, Practice the scales.And thats not sexy. Its not magic. Its not the the secret code, sometimes, not all the time. We got some secret sauce in the book. Ill give you that. There is some…there are some Jedi mind tricks in there. But to execute a Jedi mind trick, you cant do that without being able to master the fundamentals. Thats how you then use a black belt skill because youve mastered the fundamentals. And [inaudible 00:23:30]…Alex: A John Wooden-kind of philosophy of just getting really strong in the fundamentals, and everything else will kind of take care of itself, ri ght?Chris Voss: Right, right, right, exactly.Alex: And as were kinda wrapping things up here, Im really interested. You mentioned labeling. You also have the idea of mirroring. And these are all great ideas in the book. But one thing I wanna…I was curious a little bit more about, if you can kinda touch on, is the accusation audit and how you might use that in a salary negotiation. Im kinda curious how that might fit in there.Chris Voss: Well, you know, salary negotiation, when Im getting ready to go for more, whats the other side gonna think? Empathy is mastering what the other side is gonna think and articulating in order to defuse it or even preempt and inoculate from it. So if Im gonna ask for more, the other side is gonna think Im self-centered. Look, I got news for you. Everybody out there listening to this podcast, employers and bosses have a stereotype of new hires and employees as being self-centered because the only time you ever ask for anything, its for yourself. And no body walks into the bosss office to say, Hey, boss, what can I do to help you today? Alex: That doesnt happen all that often, yeah.Chris Voss: No, you walk in, say, Boss, I want this. I need this, or This is a problem, you know? So what you do with that knowledge if youre concerned youre gonna see seem self-centered, you could say to the employer, Look, Im sure this is gonna seem very self-centered of me. Its gonna seem as if Im only focused on my own goals. And its gonna seem like Im not looking out for everybody else, because what theyre gonna think by your ask, inoculate it, preempt it, But I need more money, you know? Or, you know, Its gonna be difficult for me to do the job at this salary.You know, if you know what theyre gonna think…you know, what we tell people on a regular basis is if your gut instinct gives you something you wanna deny, I dont want you to think Im being too self-centered. The two-millimeter shift is going from the denial, which makes it worse, to the fair ly calling it out, the label. And the brain science actually backs this up, because the negatives influence are thinking three times the power of the positives. So the accusation audit identifies the negatives and labels them and defuses.Alex: And its such a hard thing to really get comfortable doing being able to kinda get…whether its a salary negotiation or any other kind just kind of speaking negatively about yourself and kind of how they… And hopefully youre right about what their perception is if youre in tune with what theyre likely gonna be thinking to be able to articulate that and voice that. Wow. Ive done it a little bit so far, and it does work wonders. Just once you get comfortable with it…its not the most comfortable thing in the world…but once you once you get really comfortable doing it, it does work wonders and helps smooth things out and make the whole conversation a lot easier. Excellent.By the way, when…you know, you have to think about it like the last time somebody negotiated with you, right? So as Im…you know, your reputation precedes you, right? How did that go when someone… You made a job offer to someone, and they started to kinda have a conversation with you about salary. How did that end up going for them?Chris Voss: Well, it goes pretty good because I go out of my way to… I want my reputation to be the people that do business with me prosper. If I have that reputation, then people will start lining up to do business with me. And I have a tendency to [inaudible 00:27:19] the deal to include a lot more than just price. But I want you to feel like you are well-compensated because youre gonna work hard for me. Youre gonna give me that extra. Youre gonna deliver with excellence. You know, yes is nothing without how. If you dont deliver without excellence, it was a bad deal. And Im gonna want you to refer me to your network, and Im gonna want you to be an ambassador for me on a regular basis.You know, were developing some training with some people in Silicon Valley area, specifically designed for them. I got a great partner that Im working with. Shes a superstar. And we started to flesh out the collaboration. And every time we start to sit down and begin to talk about compensation, she literally says to me the other day, I can sense that youre trying to make sure that we feel like were getting paid enough or that we have a high enough percentage. Im like Yeah, you know, I want a great long-term partner, long-term prosperity for both sides. So as long as youre not greedy short term, youre probably gonna do pretty well.Alex: Yeah. Like you mentioned, its tapped into your reputation. Im assuming that since folks do…if they do research on you and theyre speaking with you, they probably have some of those misconceptions at the beginning, like Uh-oh, this guy is a tough negotiator. I better watch my step. And Im assuming part of what youre doing probably in the first minute, two minutes is trying to buil d rapport to them to the point where theyre like Okay, I can trust this person, and then it can kinda feel like they can have a real conversation with you and not be on guard, like Uh-oh, this guy is gonna really take it to me.Chris Voss: Well…and, you know, well do an accusations audit. Like earlier on, well say like, You know what? Its gotta be horrible talking to a hostage negotiator. And people laugh and then relax, yeah. And then well get started.Alex: Well, Chris, thank you, thank you so much. I have to tell you, you know, like I said, Ive read hundreds of books on negotiation and these kinds of topics, and yours is I gotta say the best Ive seen so far because its not just theory and theory and theory. Its specifically simple practical advice that really works. And thats, you know, a really, really, really rare thing in a book, a business book. You get a lot of theory. You dont get clear, simple takeaways that you can immediately put into practice. So thank you, thank you so much. Thank you for being on the show and sharing this wonderful advice. And tell people now what you got going on, where they can find out more about you, what you…you know, what else they can learn from Black Swan and some of the work that youre doing.Chris Voss: All right, theres two great gateways. First of all, you know, the website is www.blackswanltd.com. Now we also put out a once-a-month negotiation newsletter thats complimentary, which means its free. And [inaudible 00:30:19] love to say, If its free, Ill take three. So, you know, its a good price. And thats a great gateway to our training materials, announcements about when were doing training in different cities, how do you get our free stuff, do you want better individualized training. And every single issue has got an article about negotiation that will help you get better at negotiation. And so to sign up for The Edge, the newsletter, if you text the words FBIEMPATHY all one word, no space, FBIEMPATHY, to the numbe r 22828, its 22828, FBIEMPATHY, you get a text back thatll let you sign up for the newsletter. And its another great gateway to the keys to the kingdom.Alex: Excellent. Well, were gonna have that info in the show description as well. Well have the site and links to the book and the info about signing up for the text-based newsletter. And then Im just curious now, kind of as a separate thing, are there plans to do public courses as well? Like is that part of the…because I think you have some of the online stuff and the newsletter and the email, kind of daily email thing that you also include that you have a subscription for. Are you also planning on offering some training for folks in different cities.Chris Voss: Right, right. And well have one coming up in August in Washington DC. Then were gonna do several other cities after that. Were gonna get to the point where were doing a one-day open enrollment training, if not once a quarter, once every two months. And were gonna be going back and forth across the country, but weve got one coming up in August in Washington DC. And therell be information and the specifics will be in the newsletter.Alex: Excellent. Presumably, youll be in New York at some point too, right? Im gonna assume. Is that right?Chris Voss: I love New York City.Alex: Excellent. Well, thank you again. This has been so, so wonderful. Thank you for sharing all this wonderful advice and all the work youre doing. And well hope to see you again soon. Thanks, Chris.Chris Voss: Its been a pleasure, thanks.